Thoughts while reading

[macklingirl]

Did you ever have the feeling of betrayal while reading a Pros-story? I mean the feeling you have when you realise that the summary of the very long story has unfortunately been the best part of the story.

The story has more than 43000 words and the summary says "A man from Bodie's past seeks revenge, he wants Bodie dead but first he wants him to suffer like he as. Can CI5 save him before John Morgan get his wish and kills him",  so I thought "Wonderful. That could be a good h/c Bodie story." And I wanted to know why this John Morgan wants to kill Bodie. So I started reading.

But after the second chapter I had to stop for a while. I couldn't find out if the author is a native speaker or not, but I really, really wish she would have had a beta reader for her story. It seems as if the whole story was translated via google translator. There are never-ending sentences without any comma, some seem like three sentences in one. And there are lots and lots of missing letters and sometimes, for me, the whole sentence doesn't make sense.

And then I've read the reviews and they all say "Wow, what a great story." or "Very well written" and so on. So I think, maybe it is only me who has the problems and maybe it is because I'm not a native speaker. Or am I too spoiled by our authors? I mean, we have really very good authors writing the Big Bang stories or stories for the DIALJ challenges.

I'm curious how the story will end (at the moment Bodie is alive and six feet under in a coffin), but I must admit I'm happy when I reach the end and can read something better written.

For all who are interested, the link is under the cut.


For all who are interested: R-for-Revenge

Comments

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Do you have a link to the story? If it only focuses on Bodie rather than both our lads then I wouldn't have read it, but I'm certainly curious from your description!

[macklingirl.livejournal.com]

Yes, of course.

R for Revenge

Like I said, maybe it's only me with the problems. And there are also Doyle and Murphy and even Cowley but for me, they are really out of character.

[macklingirl.livejournal.com]

It's R for Revenge. Here is the link

R-for-Revenge

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Ah, it's Fanfiction.net — I must admit I never read over there, because I've yet to find well-written stories there (not to say there aren't any, I just haven't found them in my brief searches *g*) And it also looks like it's gen.

From a brief glance — yes, the author could definitely do with a beta reader, and my guess is that they're native-English speakers, but have never specialised in English. But they also say it's their first Bodie and Doyle story, and my impression is that people tend to post to fanfiction.net when they don't have Pros contacts/aren't in the lj Pros communities etc., so I'd guess they just don't know about beta readers to start with. I didn't, when I was first writing Pros, it's just that I happened upon Pros on lj, where expectations were made pretty clear.

One of my favourite Pros writers had similar issues with their first drafts of stories, but it was just issues with writing rather than anything else, and a thorough edit sorted it out. Their ideas and characterisation etc. were brilliant, it was just the grammar that was problematic.

I'm still working, so can't read any more now, but I might try later if I can...

[macklingirl.livejournal.com]

Yes, it is one from Fanfiction.net. There are some stories I like even that they are gen. One of the stories I like there is DONNA-THE-ANGOLA-YEARS by Elzy.

But they have 12600 beta reader at Fanfiction.net. And all of them tell you in their beta-bio what strength they have and for which fandom they'll beta. So I think if one would seek help she or he could find it there.

I think I'm mostly so confused because I always thought that my grammar and writing must be much worse than that of a native-English speaker. Maybe she writes like she speaks and that's a reason why I get more disturbed by the faults.

Thank you for your explanation.

[macklingirl.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the offer to attempt it. :-)

[heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com]

Just had a very quick glance at the fic (hi bsl, hi macklingirl! hope you're keeping well!)

Like bsl, I practically never read on fanfiction.net; the few times I did, sadly I didn't find much decent writing there. And I agree: this is probably a native speaker, but someone who perhaps doesn't have much experience with composition.

Not really my cup of tea, as it's gen and I usually prefer slash with few exceptions, but from the (admittedly very little) bit I read I would definitely agree that nobody really seems in character to me.

Let us be spoiled by our good authors! *g*

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

I just peeked at the first few sentences, and definitely know what you mean. I'm not sure I'll read much more of it.

[macklingirl.livejournal.com]

You know me, I have a very high pain threshold with stories. *g*
And I wanted to know what John Morgan would do to Bodie. But now I know and I'm not sure that I'll finish it.

[macklingirl.livejournal.com]

Hi helio. Great to see you. Well, sometimes you can find a good one.

And yes, non of our CI5 characters really is in character in this story. I mean, Cowley wouldn't yell at Murphy for losing Bodie after he (Murphy) was knocked out with a gun. And Doyle wouldn't be able to leave the hospital on his own two feet after surgery to fix his broken rips.

There are so many inconsistencies there.

[dawnebeth.livejournal.com]

I understand your pain--I have found if I am mentally editing the story rather than diving in and living it with the characters then it is not the story for me, and I bail.

Peeve.

[harlech1000.livejournal.com]

Yes I have — it gets really frustrating when the story would be really great if someone had had the story proof read.

My other pet peeve is I don’t read serious death stories ( ie Bodie or Doyle) so when an author doesn’t warn me of death of a major character it gets to me.

[freetraveller15.livejournal.com]

Hello *waves*
I've read the first ten or so paragraphs and agree with the other commenters, it reads to me as if it is written by a native speaker (also judging from the use of idioms), but with little writing/editing experience and skills. I have not read far enough to be able to comment on characterisation or plot consistency etc. Apart from the more technical errors, a few passages read more like exposition than fiction writing, and that is also what drags me out of the story. Basically stops me from getting involved and eager to continue.

I have a very high threshold level for poorly written material (fictional or not), plus my working experience as a translator and editor/proofreader makes me very sensitive about the smallest typo or spelling mistake, to the point that (I know it sounds pedant, but there you go 🙄😉) my attention and focus get diverted and I end up being almost unable to enjoy the story per se.

I don't have much reading experience on fanfiction.net, whether for Pros or other fandoms. I get the feeling, like bsl, that this might be an archive where you may find stories written by fans who have little experience or knowledge of fandom/communities etc, but where occasionally you may also find talented authors too

[fiorenza-a.livejournal.com]

I do read on FF.Net (and I post there sometimes), but I haven't read this one.

I didn't read the comments, but you do have to remember that in fanfiction whether something is well written is largely subjective, and not everybody is bothered by the same things. So it may be well written by some people's lights — but I can see what you mean about long sentences. (Although our conventions of punctuation are fairly modern, great rambling sentences were the norm a few hundred years ago.)

I don't know Prawn Toast and Crackers as an author, so I can't comment on whether this is typical of their style — but I don't think your issues stem from not having English as a native language — I think anyone might have the same issues reading the story.

I understand how you feel though, that's happened to me a few times when I started reading Pros — I thought 'that summary sounds just up my street' and then the story didn't live up to it (and I'm quite happy with Gen, so that has nothing to do with it).

I think there are some good stories on FF.Net (some of my favourites I found there), but on reading a couple of paragraphs, just to get a flavour of what you were talking about, I think you're right, it could do with an edit for punctuation.

I hope the ending eventually makes the story worthwhile for you :0)

[tinturtle]

But they also say it's their first Bodie and Doyle story, and my impression is that people tend to post to fanfiction.net when they don't have Pros contacts/aren't in the lj Pros communities etc., so I'd guess they just don't know about beta readers to start with.

I think some people are too shy to ask, also. If you hadn't offered to look over my first fanfic, it's entirely possible it wouldn't have been beta read at all.

[tinturtle]

Yes, I find frequent errors very distracting. They make it hard to enjoy the story, and that's always a disappointment when other aspects of the fic are good.

I read on FF.net sometimes, and I have found good stories there. I like the AO3 interface better, though, and most new stories in my favored fandoms are posted there, so that's always been my principle haunt.

RE: Peeve.

[tinturtle]

My other pet peeve is I don’t read serious death stories ( ie Bodie or Doyle) so when an author doesn’t warn me of death of a major character it gets to me.

Hum. That seems like an issue you might run into often. To me, Pros fandom seems very anti-warning.

Re: Peeve.

[harlech1000.livejournal.com]

I know and It’s just a personal thing for me. I am happy to beta anything and have done for other groups but when I’m personally reading I’m a happy ending fanatic. And luckily that’s the majority of pros stories so 👍😁

[harlech1000.livejournal.com]

I read the first part and see what you mean. There are a lot of good writers on this fan fiction site but also a lot of bad ones, sad ones and need a beta ones. The plot looks good though.
Definitely a pros plotline.

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

I don't read on FF.net, partly because of its reputation for stories like you mentioned, but also, and this may have been cleared up, because there was talk of the site having issues with privacy and other matters relating to software.

Anyway, yes, I've certainly run into stories like this, where you think it's going to be great and then turns out to not be. At this point, I pretty much stay with writers whose work I know is good. That may keep me from reading some great stories by new writers, at least for a time, but eventually I tend to hear about what's good and what's bad from other readers. Like now. :-) Because you can't really go by comments because I've read some glowing comments for some not very good stories. I happens all the time. I don't know if the readers just aren't aware of works by better writers, or if they just don't notice the problems. (!)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

But they have 12600 beta reader at Fanfiction.net. And all of them tell you in their beta-bio what strength they have and for which fandom they'll beta. So I think if one would seek help she or he could find it there.
I've just been to have a look at this, and I have no idea how someone would find a beta for Pros from the massive list of people who come up - it looks like you have to go into each person's profile to see what they beta for. I couldn't see a filter by fandom (maybe I just didn't see it).

The other thing is that if you don't know you need a beta (or know what a beta is — and I didn't when I started writing for Pros) then you wouldn't go looking for someone. You'd think your story was fine. I mean, if you wrote a story in German, and had never heard of beta readers, would you think of getting someone to correct it for you before posting? Or would you assume that your German writing was fine? *g*

I don't think it looks quite like writing-as-someone-speaks, I think it's just not having internalised various "rules" for writing, and so not applying them. And we learn English differently to the way non-native speakers learn it too, so you probably have a better knowledge of English rules etc. than alot of us (this is something I noticed when I was teaching English as a second language years ago. And the way English is taught is different in the UK and US as well, quite apart from the differences between those languages themselves! It's all very tricksy and interesting... *g*

And then you get into the difference between not just written and spoken English, and all the various dialects, but the little twists of phraseology that make a real difference to the way we read something as fiction rather than non-fiction etc... *g*

It's not just fanfiction.net though — there are Pros stories on A03 and in the older archives that are written in ways I just can't read (and as Gilda says, sometimes there's all sorts of fabulous feedback for these stories too, when I want to cringe at the sentence structure, or dialogue, or punctuation... and that's not even starting on the characterisation... *vbg*

[macklingirl.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's right. It is a pros plotline and that's why I'm so sad in a way. It seems as if the writer writes like she talks. That's something that happens quite fast. But most of all it's the typos that throw me out of the story.

I mean, I'm not a native-English speaker and I think that's the reason why I read a story very thorough so that I can understand it. But that seems to be also the reason why I find such things. Or things that she suddenly writes about the merchant-navy when a few sentences before she writes that John Morgan was a mercenary.

But I'm happy that it's not only me who feels there's a need for a beta reader.

[macklingirl.livejournal.com]

This is one of the sentences which lead me to the idea that it might be a non-native-English writer. That sounds like something that happens when you use google translator. It can't work with the name Bodie as a name.

>Once down on the other side Mike gathered their bags while Morgan retied the Bodie's hands together, this time they were behind his back.<

Or would you assume that your German writing was fine?
No, of course I wouldn't assume that. It was a terrible thing. But I really didn't know anyone who wrote stories. I could write poems at that time (and I still can) and they are good. So it doesn't feel too wrong for me. And there aren't so many German stories to tell the difference.

...so you probably have a better knowledge of English rules etc. than a lot of us

My old English teacher would laugh himself sick if he could read this. I was the worst pupil ever in English. I didn't understand it and I never thought about reading anything in English again after I finished school. But today I'm sure that it was only because I didn't have the right thing to read. *g*

[macklingirl.livejournal.com]

Yeah, you might be right and that she really is too shy. She didn't write any other story so maybe someone told her about the problems and she didn't like the reaction. We'll never know for sure.

[macklingirl.livejournal.com]

Thanks. Normally I do the same, but in this case, I wanted to know what would happen to Bodie. It really is a good plot.

Re: Peeve.

[macklingirl.livejournal.com]

Yes and that's the frustrating thing here. It could have been such a great story because the storyline in itself is a good one.

Oh yes, serious death stories are a bad thing. I think that's the only warning that should always be given because if I find a story and one of our lads dies there and I wasn't warned, I would never read a story of that author again.

[macklingirl.livejournal.com]

Hello *waves back*.
Nice to see you around. It's like you said, the typos and spelling mistakes and the missing letters divert my attention too and that is something that I never would have thought. I mean, my English isn't the best ever and I think when I'm able to find such things others must have found them too.

Sometimes I ask myself if it could be that native speakers read more superficially. I have a good friend (she teaches histories at the university) who is able to finish a book in one hour when I need a day. But she doesn't find any typos or logical faults and she can't remember what she read when she reads for fun. But she will tell you the book was fine. *g*

And yes, sometimes you'll find a really talented author there.

[macklingirl.livejournal.com]

Yes, the subjectiveness was the reason why I asked. I thought it was only me and that others find it normal.

Since she (or maybe he) didn't write any other stories we won't be able to know if it is the typical writing style.

And yes, it sometimes happens that you think "wow, that sounds really good. Let's go and read it" when you find a summary and after finishing the story you think "Ok, where is the plot that was in the summary". And I read Gen and Slash, so it could happen everywhere.

I'll edit my entry when I've finished.

[macklingirl.livejournal.com]

Oh, I didn't know about the problems with FF.net. I'm only a reader there and didn't have an account.

I stumbled over this story because I try to save as much Pros-Fanfiction as possible. And so I saved the FF.net stories and I started reading because the summary was interesting. I never read the comments before I start reading a story. That would affect my openness to the story. I've read some of this comments just before I made this post because I thought that maybe some others thought the same.

[fiorenza-a.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, please do. I would be interested to hear what you think after you've finished it.

[freetraveller15.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm not English mother tongue either, though I've been working in English-speaking environments for nearly thirty years, and yet my command of English, especially in terms of idioms and vocabulary, could never be the same as a native speaker. I am relatively slow reader in English too, compared to most native speakers, but my reading speed may also depend on the type of text and whether I read 'for work' or for leisure. For sure, having a degree in Languages makes me — even against my better intentions 😉 — perhaps more attentive and careful than some native speakers. I think especially with fiction, if a story is very well written and has a riveting plot, I tend to be torn between the desire to read fast to see how the story unfolds and the opposite desire to read slowly to as to savour the good writing for longer... :)

[tinturtle]

I try to save as much Pros-Fanfiction as possible.

Hooray!

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

I checked a few paragraphs. I kept rereading because of the lack of commas and/or periods. Also two POVS in the first few paragraphs makes me dizzy. I also do not read FF.net since they don't allow slash. I've never posted there (duh) and I can't say I've ever read any fic there. I did look at some of the authors' names from the first postings in early 2000 and I do recognise a few names. It's too bad because a good editor would at least make the story readable. This way you can't tell if the plot is a good one.